Have you ever been scared or hesitant about reporting flaws or bugs to a community with a strong staunch fanbase ??
Obviously there are different ways of reporting and starting discussions, but I brought up the courage to report a flaw on a subreddit (not to be named) that I knew is very sensitive to criticisme, and I was flooded with downvotes and even was subject to gaslighting, so I gave up on that software and became even more hesitant about reporting problems on other FOSS communities .
Is this mindset very prevalent among all open source communities? have you faced something similar ?
I would try to have those discussions via a GitHub issue instead of social media. Actual developers (versus fanboys) would appreciate the feedback.
Sometimes. Sometimes they’re aggressive about bug reports.
Keep in mind that the question is presented will affect how it is responded to as well. I, for one, get very defensive when people act all entitled expecting the world and the moon for free from FOSS developers. Here’s the difference:
Good:
I’ve been trying out [software], but I’ve been having a problem with [issue].
Thanks for your work on [software]. I’m having trouble using [feature] because of [issue]. I tried a number of things to solve it, [troubleshooting steps] but no luck.
[Software] has been having an issue lately with [issue] when I do [recreation steps]. Does anyone know the problem and how it can be fixed?
Bad:
Why isn’t [issue] with [software] fixed already?
When are we going to get [feature]~~~~~
[Software] is completely unusable until they get [issue] fixed. (This may be true, but what kind of motivation do these kinds of comments give the developer to fix them?)
Someone help! [Software] isn’t working! It’s showing an error! (No real description of what happened, how it happened, no effort shown to help the developer fix the problem)
So all in all it’s about tone for me. I’m happy to guide people, but bad tone puts me off a bit in wanting to help them.
I get it, but my complaint wasn’t as much about project developpers as it is about the project fanbase.
I totally respect all the efforts involved into making open source software, my gripe was with how to communities do resist change or criticisme sometimes.
With open source it is “community software”, and if this aspect of it is strong then the line between users and developers can be blurred somewhat, ordinary users may feel attached in a similar way as developers, so @Rentlar@beehaw.org’s suggestions could still apply for getting a better response from the community.
Some communities also have to deal with a lot of demanding, entitled people (which I’m not labelling you as) and so may have set the defensive threshold a little high, and so coming across as being constructive about the project goes a long way.
Do it anyway and ignore the backlash. If no one reports it then it will never be addressed. Its the drawing of attention to the matter that counts in my opinion.
The only complaint I have is that most communities or devs prefer you to open issues on places such as github instead but I feel it doesnt really matter since not everyone is willing to take the extra steps.
As a software developer, this is constructive:
open issues on places such as github
This is bitching:
it doesnt really matter since not everyone is willing to take the extra steps.
I try to post issues on github , but because I always have to verify my sign-up using email 2auth. It grinds my gears that reporting bugs is becoming tedious.
I tried to open an account on codeberg.org to report a small issue, the website refused to let me sign-up with a temporary email (I understand they have to fight spam), I don’t like using my own email everywhere so its another disappointement on my list.
Protonmail accounts are free. Just make one and use it for bug report signups.
And if you have a paid Proton account, you get SimpleLogin included, so you can use a unique email address for every service. I love that - I now generally have a unique username, password, and email address for every service.
Good idea!
Ran into the same problem as you. Did not feel like making my 273828rd email and ended up not reporting a bug.
Why not just make a secondary ‘real’ email account that you use exclusively for signing up for things? Gets around those problems and gives you a way to retrieve recovery emails if you ever actually need to.
the problem is not the email per se, as I have 2 or 3, but having to open up my email and retrieve the 2auth code each time I sign-in to github to post an issue. my browser is set to autodelete cookies when closed. that’s my petpeev. and unfortunaly most projects are hosted on github.
but in the day it was easier to report an issue straight on the devs websites; very fast and straight forward. times changes
I mean, that sounds like extreme laziness. You’re complaining about opening an email (or you could setup an authenticator app). Literally just opening an email is too difficult for you to do and prevents you from telling some other devs about some work you think they should do. I’m being slightly facetious, but you are basically creating work for the devs. The least you can do is open your email. I imagine it’s software they made that you’re probably using for free. Is it so much to ask for? If it bothers you so much, get a hardware key. Bonus if it’s NFC capable so it can work on your phone too. But seriously. This just sounds so entitled at this point. I don’t care that your cookies autodelete. You can open your email. Hell, get the email on your phone even. I don’t care. This isn’t a problem that someone should really be having issues with. It’s a minor inconvenience.
I hear what you are saying.
but did you ever consider how github could be a stop gate to many many tech illeterate people, who don’t know how to post an issue or report a bug using github, having to sign-up to website they might never use again, figure up how to fill-in the ever so eleborate issue forms, and have to activate 2FA everytime they want to comment on the issue weeks after it has been posted. that’s why you see many project subreddits are full with bug reports and help requests. its easiers for the commons.
Git technology is def a godsend for developpers but could also be a barrier to less techy people how don’t know how to report, or if it is a problem in the software or something they are doing wrong. that’s why I think we need to be more welcoming and less standoffish to people with less know how.
Maybe having a simple form on the project website that can mirror the bug reports to github is oneway to provide people with an easier solution to give feedback that they might not give otherwise.
I guess at the end of the day you’d have to decide for yourself whether you’d prefer submitting bugs to a social media spot (if the project has one), which is a lot more open to drama from others than on GitHub (which is not to say that drama doesn’t happen on Git[Hub/Lab/etc]).
Maybe having a simple form on the project website that can mirror the bug reports to github is oneway to provide people with an easier solution to give feedback that they might not give otherwise.
A couple of issues with this:
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It’d be easier to spam / fill with junk, and would require either a custom solution that every project would have to reinvent the wheel on, or another centralized service that acts as the “gatekeeper” to spam… in which you just have the GitHub issue all over again
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This method doesn’t give developers an easy way to respond/follow-up on the report. It is very common for “bug reports” to not actually contain enough information on how to reproduce the problem unfortunately. You could say, add a field for an email address (which would need to be filtered out before posting to Git and stored somewhere / tied to the issue that gets opened) but I think most people would be against giving every single individual project their email address than GitLab/GitHub/etc. Additionally if we’re focusing on tech illiterate people as you mentioned, its unlikely they’d even respond to a follow-up email.
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No, most projects have a support email. I rarely see them not include that.
So you delete your cookies and then complain that you have to login again and again?
Firefox Relay, Proton email aliases, and whatever iCloud’s email thing is called all allow you to hide your email. The free versions tend to limit how many you can create, but some let you pay for unlimited. I use a different alias for every single thing I sign up for (i personally use Firefox Relay and only ran into an issue once during a sign up). Since I also pay for Proton Mail though, I can get other aliases through there if need be. Basically the very free things will turn you into a customer, so if you want to keep privacy, paying for the basic protections isn’t super expensive.
Do I get scared? No, not really.
People do dog pile on threads and issues screaming “It’s not an issue” and “you are just doing it wrong, it’s simply doing exactly what you asked it to do.” which is common in FOSS and frankly, most Linux distros. Even something as simple as video card drivers don’t work a good portion of the time. Or you’ll get them working and you’ll upgrade and the upgrade bricks your computer because the upgrade software didn’t do the driver update to the kernel.
Realistically, with any OS or app, people want the full package. If the software doesn’t deliver the full working solution so that people can continue on with whatever they were trying to use their computer for in the first place, then it’s broken and should be fixed. If you are getting in the way or making excuses for that then you are the type of person holding up FOSS software from progressing. No ifs, ands, or butts. Don’t make excuses for broken things. It’s never helpful and it really just hurts the software you are defending.
That said, yes this mindset is widespread in FOSS and gaming. It’s because people make close connections to the software, not the developers but to the software itself. People feel like they need to defend the software. They see people pointing out flaws or bugs in it as damaging the software or the integrity of those who use it. In reality, those pointing out the flaws are trying to make it better for them. It’s the opposite of damaging. It’s one of the first things you learn as a software engineer. Bug reports aren’t attacks on you, your code, or the software. They are simply things that are broken that need to be fixed. It happens and that’s life. Just fix it and move on.
Anyways, clearly, it annoys me that this is a problem.
If you’re reporting a bug, requesting a feature or enhancement, or suggesting a revision to a FOSS project …
- Find the repository and do your interaction there.
- Try to fix it yourself and then submit a Pull Request.
- If you can’t fix it yourself, find the Issue report and follow the template. If the issue is already being talked about, contain your comments to the existing ticket.
- That’s it, you’re done. Don’t keep making noise in the community, on Discord, Twitter, or wherever.
That’s it, you’re done. Don’t keep making noise in the community, on Discord, Twitter, or wherever.
odd inclusion
If there’s a problem that needs to be fixed, it’s way easier to fix if all the feedback is in the same place.
ry to fix it yourself and then submit a Pull Request.
most software users cannot code.
Well, I guess it’s a good thing I didn’t stop listing instructions!
I always do everything online anonymously unless there’s a VERY good reason not to. So with no identity or investment in an account to protect, I don’t really fear any negative feedback. That said, it’s not a license to be a jerk and I try not to come across as aggressive or blaming them for what is on the whole, a very minor problem in my life.
I don’t often interact with fan-bases for FOSS projects, instead as a developer I mostly interact with maintainers and contributors. Sometimes the maintainers are incredibly abrasive and belittling to issue contributors for seemingly no reason. When I observe this, it makes me think twice about opening a new issue under that project. In fact, at this moment I’m considering building my own alternative to a FOSS project for this exact reason!
Edit: I know this might seem like an extreme response, but I’m also looking for a good excuse for a side-project. Depending on the project it might be worth it to brace yourself against the bristles to try and reach common ground. It could be that the maintainer(s) don’t even know that they’re coming off a certain way. But YMMV.
Always try and lead with the compliments and only burn them after. Like a sweet curry laced with Scotch Bonnet.
Also in those communities where they have a mentality of them against the world, make sure you use we and us. Talk as if it’s something you want to solve together as a community, not something you’re expecting others to solve like an entitled person.
Chin up friend, you’ll have some setbacks, but your goodwill is appreciated.
I lack in diplomacy I must confess !
Generally the community isn’t even necessarily seen by the developers, especially if it’s big enough to have a lot of active users. They can’t track everything in the community. Centralized feedback is absolutely a godsend for developers. They can’t go searching for it.
I don’t remember what project it was our what my suggestion was but a few years ago I posted a suggestion on GitHub and got a nasty response from the developer saying it was a crappy idea and attacking me. They didn’t state WHY they thought it was a bad idea. Very childish. I haven’t posted suggestions since then.
Reddit is not where I would submit a bug. I would make sure I was running the latest version and that it still has the bug. I would search to see if It is a known issue both with a web search and on their bug tracker. If I found nothing I would submit a well reaseached and documented bug report.
If your a developer you could even submit a patch or pull request against the project main line. Most people cannot do that though.
If it is not a bug then really the developers should not be expected to do much. May not be their priority or vision. Lot more questionable to submit non-bug items unless you plan on developing them yourself and seeing if their is interest in including.
I received downvotes (only) for just reporting bugs and writing feature requests. Although, top posts were always bug reports and feature requests.
Those people are fanboys with no dev experience. I guess they are so insecure they view their favorite app’s potential improvements as threats.
I don’t really visit FOSS communities, however I have given my fair share of bug reports and feedback. (I’m a game programmer)
Most communities welcome the feedback. I know I can be blunt, or even out of line while reporting sometimes. I try to be the “asshole” before another person comes along without my experience who actually is an asshole and doesn’t know what they’re talking about.
It’s also a minor test to see how they respond to rough feedback. I don’t think anyone has mishandled it so far. They are always polite and respectful to customers, and I usually relax after the first encounter.
I try to make it clear that the feedback I give has importance (when i know what im talking about), or if its minor, i tell them its not a real issue, not worth fixing, etc. If they reject it, it stops there. More often than not, they are understanding.
I don’t recall any blatant arrogance in any responses so far.
