The following is the text copied from the reddit post in the /r/blind sub reddit.
Moderators of r/blind—along with moderators in other communities who use assistive technologies and Reddit users with accessibility expertise—had a Zoom meeting with representatives at Reddit on Friday, June 16, 2023. While the call was promising in that Reddit invited us to be part of continuing dialog and demonstrated some well-conceived accessible designs for Reddit users, we came away with serious concerns which Reddit was either unable or unwilling to address during the meeting.
Reddit is currently prioritizing accessibility for users rather than for moderators, and representatives were unwilling to provide timelines by when Reddit’s moderation tools would be accessible for screen reader users. Further, Reddit representatives seemed unaware that blind moderators rely on third-party applications because Reddit’s moderation tools present significant accessibility challenges. They also seemed unaware that the apps which have so far received exemptions from API pricing do not have sufficient moderation functions. u/NTCarver0 explained that blind moderators will be unable to ensure safety for our communities—as well as for Reddit in general—without accessible moderation systems, and asked Reddit representatives how blind moderators were supposed to effectively moderate our communities without them. Reddit representatives deferred the question, stating they would have to take notes and get back with us. A fellow moderator, u/MostlyBlindGamer, also pointed out that blind moderators who are unable to effectively moderate the subreddit and thus will become inactive may be removed at Reddit’s discretion per policy, and that such removal would leave r/Blind with no blind moderators. Reddit representatives also deferred comment on this issue.
Reddit representatives refused to answer questions concerning the formal certifications, accreditations or qualifications of employees tasked with ensuring universal accessibility. These certifications demonstrate that a professional has the knowledge necessary to create universally-accessible software and/or documents. Because Reddit cannot confirm that employees tasked with universal accessibility hold appropriate certifications or that the company will provide for such training and certification, we have concerns that employees do not have the appropriate knowledge to effectively ensure access for all assistive technology users both at present and in the future. Reddit has also indicated there are not currently any employees who work full-time on accessibility. This is a necessity for any organization as large and influential as Reddit.
Reddit representatives had previously disclosed to r/Blind moderators that an accessibility audit had been performed by a third-party company, however they refused to answer questions as to what company performed the audit or how the audit was conducted. Answers to these questions would have allowed us to determine whether the audit was performed by an accredited organization known for credible and thorough work. Reddit also could not answer questions as to what assistive technologies, such as screen readers, screen magnifiers, dictation softwares, etc., were used during the audit. Bluntly, we cannot know the thoroughness or scope of the audit—and therefore the extent to which Reddit is aware of the accessibility barriers present in their website and apps—without this information.
During the previous meeting, Reddit representatives raised a question regarding perceived disparities between the accessibility of the iOS and Android apps, suggesting the audit did not confirm that the accessibility failings in the iOS app are much more severe than those present in the Android app. During the latest meeting, u/MostlyBlindGamer explained that the iOS app has no labels for the ubiquitous and essential upvote and downvote buttons while the Android app does. This question raises the concern that Reddit representatives may not have a full and actionable understanding of the issues at stake or, in fact, the exact accessibility failings in their apps.
Reddit representatives narrowly defined the scope of the latest meeting less than an hour ahead of it, explicitly excluding third-party apps and API pricing from the conversation. They did acknowledge that this made it difficult to adequately prepare for the meeting.
Reddit refused to define the term “accessibility-focused app,” alleging that this was outside the scope of the meeting. This term is not industry-standard and was instead created when Reddit carved out an exemption in their upcoming API policies for third-party apps used by blind people to access the platform. Without this definition, we are unable to ascertain whether apps that have not been approved but are nevertheless relied upon by community members qualify for an exemption.
Reddit gave no firm commitments as to when accessibility improvements would be rolled out to the website or apps. However, it is obvious that the Reddit website and apps will not be ready for disabled users—and especially moderators—by July 1.
In general, moderators of r/Blind who attended the call came away with mixed impressions. Reddit seems to be somewhat aware of the myriad accessibility barriers present in their applications and website, and the company appears to be laying the groundwork to fix issues which they are aware of. This is excellent news. However, we also feel that Reddit does not know what it does not know, and this lack of knowledge is exasperating, disheartening, and exhausting. We also came away frustrated that Reddit representatives were either unwilling or unable to answer prudent and pertinent questions which would allow us to determine not only how we can best keep our community safe and healthy, but also whether Reddit is truly prepared to commit to ensuring accessibility for all disabled users both now and in the future. Finally, we hope that our concerns—especially those pertaining to moderation—will be addressed expeditiously and satisfactorily, thus assuring that r/Blind can operate effectively well into the future. Despite our concerns, we remain open to continued dialog with Reddit in the hope that it will foster a more accessible platform.
Can anyone give tl;dr?
Reddit has no tools for blind users, because it never considered that they needed them.
Reddit cannot commit to creating these tools, because “we’re working on accessibility” is purely a lie to placate the masses.
Reddit doesn’t even know what they’re supposed to be working on or what the problems are, because they simply do not care about users with disabilities.
When 3rd party apps are blocked on July 1st, Reddit is no longer going to support accessibility features that blind mods and users need. Reddit’s owners don’t seem to have considered how much work it’s going to be to provide said features “in-house.”
Reddit does not know what it does not know, and this lack of knowledge is exasperating, disheartening, and exhausting. We also came away frustrated that Reddit representatives were either unwilling or unable to answer prudent and pertinent questions which would allow us to determine not only how we can best keep our community safe and healthy, but also whether Reddit is truly prepared to commit to ensuring accessibility for all disabled users both now and in the future.
Reddit: “we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!”
Best TL:DR I’ve read in a while … thanks
What’s accessibility like for Lemmy/kbin? I wonder if we could get an early start on accessibility with kbin, since it has a much younger codebase.
Kbin seems to be continually looking into updating things but I doubt accessibility / vision support is high on the priority list right now, the issues tracker is almost 300 long.
I wonder if we could find/contact/contract a developer with an accessibility focus. I’m planning on leaving some moderately significant donations in a few days (damn settling periods and bank holidays making that slow), and maybe there could be a community fundraising effort to get an accessibility expert in to submit some PRs. I made a big fuss out of accessibility on Reddit in the lead up to the protest, and it feels hypocritical of me to not keep pushing for it now. Not sure if Ernest would be interested in that or not, but it seems like it might be a good idea.
I think that would be great!
Not that it wouldn’t be worthwhile anyway, but as a general thing, changes which greatly improve accessibility for some tend to be positive for everyone. I think that above post really demonstrates that. The /r/Blind users were using the same 3rd party apps as everyone else. Contrary to what reddit is trying to say, there are not particular “accessibility”-only apps. Like there’s no daisy reddit. Being accessible was part of the general high quality, thoughtful design. And now they are being told to use the same low quality, shitty tools which nobody else wants to use, but they can’t use. Accessibility goes hand in hand with quality. No news to you I’m sure.
I would be shocked (and sad) to learn if the devs here wouldn’t appreciate PRs from a knowledgeable contributor along these lines. I think it could be hard to prioritize doing these things already because of how many bazillions of communications are coming in from people who are already using the platform. And if the main dev doesn’t have expertise in this area it is also easier to apply oneself to the many problems you do know how to solve rather than going off on a research project… (I have no idea about the skills of the kbin devs.)
They are just blowing smoke up your asses to reduce the bad press before the IP.
Burn them down.
My thoughts exactly.
I agree. They are telling you, well, half of what you want to hear, and expecting you to accept that. Don’t. Don’t expect them to follow through on anything.
So perhaps this is tangential, but while it was clearly meant as a last-second “oh shit” move, one of the apps that is being excepted from the API charge is Dystopia for iOS. It’s currently only on Apple Testflight, but they’re working to get listed on the app store. I am not blind, and I have tried it, and while it’s no Apollo, it’s… decent. The same text-centric, simple UI that makes it work well with assistive technology also results in a pretty clean app for people who just want to read and discuss. It’s also under active development.
Once it pops up in search I think some folks in the general public are going to like it better than the official app. What does Reddit do if and when their designated “blind people” app starts attracting users with no connection to the blind community? Will they allow it to continue?
It’s more and more sounding like they have no plan and had no idea how much they were gonna fuck up to implement this plan with no plan.
Remember, this is a company that had nearly 2k employees before the layoffs (5% of the workforce, so still 1k+), and they can’t do accessiblity even at the minimum viable level.
I’m a disability spouse, and this aspect of the whole scenario makes me so angry. It’s not that they’re ignorant and dismissive of people’s accessibility concerns, it’s the manner in which they’re ignorant and dismissive of people’s accessibility concerns.
