It’s just a PC, it’s as proprietary as a PC. It comes with a Linux distro which is not ideal for day to day use pre-installed (because it’s mostly read only). On the other hand it’s very specialised for gaming. You can install any other Linux distro if you want to, and some people have even installed Windows (although not sure how the drivers work there).
You are wrong because you can install anything using flathub and that has almost everything anyone would ever need, https://flathub.org/apps/search. I don’t own the device myself but it’s Arch based so everything should just work?
From Valve themselves: “Currently, this is a stock KDE Plasma experience in terms of installing software. You can use the Discover Software Center (on the taskbar) to install apps. The Discover Software Center installs applications using flatpak technology (more on this below) onto the writeable portion of your drive. If you know your way around a Linux command line you can directly use flatpak commands to install applications. Common browsers, music players, and other kinds of applications are already available via these methods, and we expect that many more will be updated, fixed, and available after launch.”
I’am not, those are flatpaks, that’s not the same as system wide installation. You can’t change system files on the deck unless you unlock it, and even if you do that your changes will get reverted next time there is an update, because that’s how he system is designed to work, every update a clean slate.
I own a Steam Deck, reserved it on the first 15 minutes. I use Linux daily as my main OS for almost two decades, coincidentally most of my machines are also Arch based. I know what I’m talking about. You don’t want to use SteamOS for your daily computer, the system is purposefully handicapped to work as a console, if you’re doing the occasional browsing or text editing it works, the moment you need to touch system things it goes down the drain very fast.
I’m not shitting on the deck or SteamOS, I have a deck and never even considering switching the system. But you need to know the limitations of it. The system is designed for gaming, trying to use it as your main computer is bound to give you headaches even if you know your way around Linux and can think on appropriate ways to bypass the limitations, from things like podman to user services to overlay fs.
I mean that’s fair, but for the average users what exactly are they going to need to be touching system wise? All your flatpak stuff is going to be safe.
And there’s nothing stopping you from making the partition writable, it’s just not a great idea since the update mechanism has certain expectations. But it’s your device, so do what you want.
Depends on what the average user wants to do, here’s a list of random things off the top of my head that require system wide changes, i.e. they will get overwritten with the next update (which btw means you’ll need to do these at the very least monthly, but might be daily if you also want the latest SteamOS updates):
Configure a Logitech gaming mouse, while the program to do this (piper) has a flatpak, it depends on a library (libratbag) being installed system-wide. There are technical reasons for it, but in short it means it doesn’t work. This is not a problem on most Linux distros because you can just install libratbag using your package manager.
Use something that’s not KDE. If you wanted to use GNOME, XFCE, i3, or whatever else, you couldn’t. You’re stuck with KDE, if you find a way around it better automate it, because next update it will be gone.
Plug non-standard stuff that requires custom udev rules, e.g. using ADB on android phones. If you want to install things from your computer onto an android phone or of you want to root your phone you need to use ADB on it, however ADB depends on some udev rules for some android devices to be properly recognised, most distros have a package called android-udev-rules or something similar that has those configurations.
Change your boot manager. Doing this is likely to fuck up the deck, since the next update your boot manager will be deleted but the standard one might not get reinstalled. I don’t know exactly what would happen, but my guess is that every update you would need to either go to the bios to temporarily set the old boot manager back, or boot using a live image and reinstall your boot manager.
Change kernel parameters. There are plenty of reasons to want to change your kernel parameters, and whatever changes you make will need to be redone every update.
Install custom kernels.
Install firmwares.
Install drivers.
That’s just what I came up with half-asleep in 5min, I’m sure there are plenty of more examples. Yes a user might go his entire life without needing any of that, but someone who doesn’t know Linux will get frustrated if he needs any of it and nothing that he does work and when he gets it to work it’s reverted the next day. On the other hand, someone who knows Linux doesn’t need to be told any of this, because they understand the limitations and why they exist, and can work their way around it, but most importantly probably wouldn’t ask if the steam deck can be used as a PC or if it’s proprietary, since the steam deck in kind of a big thing in the community.
While technically true at a literal level, “proprietary PC” gives the impression of closed systems like OEM laptops. “Just” has a bit of a diminutive tone to it.
While Steam itself is proprietary / closed source, the Deck’s Linux OS foundation is open source. Despite being developed by Valve, Proton is also open source and is a massive boon for the viability of Linux gaming.
OEM parts are directly available from an official supplier along with detailed repair documentation - things stop short of schematics, which I look forward to seeing change.
Third party parts (screens, face button tactile upgrades, etc) are available and able to function uninhibited.
The device is clearly designed with user customization and reparability in mind.
With that said, the deck feels so much less proprietary than the PC ecosystem.
Not saying that you are wrong or that people are right to be downvoting you, I just think your phrasing comes off a bit harsh which led to negative impulse reactions. I know that my initial response was negative until I sat and thought about what you actually meant for a minute.
The PC ecosystem has all of that though, including different vendors providing parts on open standards such as power delivery or data transfers. Yes the Deck is open and awesome, but so are PCs. In fact part of what makes the Deck awesome is that it’s essentially a PC.
As someone who repairs consumer electronics for a living I’m inclined to disagree.
People are routinely installing batteries of dubious quality because the original device manufacturer will not sell them one, but the part is available within their authorized repair network.
I have clients come to me after a manufacturer quotes more than a device’s original purchase cost for a replacement screen. I’ve also had circumstances where that part is unavailable because the device is too new and the aftermarket through third-party vendors hasn’t had a chance to mature.
Schematics are only made available through leaks.
The current state of the OEM PC landscape is the main driving force behind Right To Repair legislation.
Valve entered the market already compliant.
I’ll add that one of my clients got a $150 quote from Valve for an out-of-warranty repair/replacement of the mainboard, which is pretty incredible considering that’s the most expensive part in the device.
From a hardware/repair standpoint, the OEM PC and Steam Deck ecosystems are far apart from one another.
I’m sorry, but I think we have a mismatch on our understanding of the word proprietary. A desktop PC has some proprietary things, firmware, and the likes are almost always proprietary, as in they’re the propriety of the company that made it, which means that if someone else tried to make them they’ll get sued. But most of the schematics and connectors are an open source standard. Which means that if something breaks, you can buy a replacement from a different company and everything should work.
Laptops are mostly the same as well, in fact they use much of the same standards, the thing is that the form factor makes it difficult for third-parties to make the pieces, but they exist, and are legal.
A company can charge as much or as little as they want to fix their device, that has no impact in whether the device is proprietary or not. If you are legally allowed to open, repair it and change parts with third-party ones it’s not proprietary. If anything in that chain breaks, e.g. you’re not allowed to open or repair, or third-parties are not allowed to make replacements then it’s proprietary.
Besides having made a device that’s essentially as proprietary as a desktop (which is to say almost no proprietary at all), Valve is also offering their own replacement parts and cheap repairs, which are all things to commend, but if Nintendo did it for the switch the switch would still be proprietary.
Most of what you mentioned is right to repair, which is important and all the more reason the Deck should be praised, but it’s not what proprietary means.
I’ve ran into it, and it’s very slightly off-putting. At the same time, I fully understand why they’ve done it that way, and actually agree with them. The use of flat packs as an alternative makes the problem irrelevant. They maximised openness, while also protecting it from being completely borked up by a newb running random commands.
I’m thankful for the protection, my poor laptop knows why. I was quite surprised that no superuser exists after regular setup. Thought I had forgotten my credentials (again) but they just were never set.
SteamOS has the root filesystem set to read only, this is because of the way the system gets updated, and also makes it sure that every deck is running the same system. So you can’t change system configs or install things on the system. You can get around these by installing things for your user and creating services for your user. It’s doable if you want a gaming device that you use for some other things, but it’s not very convenient for a day-to-day drive.
It’s just a PC, it’s as proprietary as a PC. It comes with a Linux distro which is not ideal for day to day use pre-installed (because it’s mostly read only). On the other hand it’s very specialised for gaming. You can install any other Linux distro if you want to, and some people have even installed Windows (although not sure how the drivers work there).
You are wrong because you can install anything using flathub and that has almost everything anyone would ever need, https://flathub.org/apps/search. I don’t own the device myself but it’s Arch based so everything should just work?
From Valve themselves: “Currently, this is a stock KDE Plasma experience in terms of installing software. You can use the Discover Software Center (on the taskbar) to install apps. The Discover Software Center installs applications using flatpak technology (more on this below) onto the writeable portion of your drive. If you know your way around a Linux command line you can directly use flatpak commands to install applications. Common browsers, music players, and other kinds of applications are already available via these methods, and we expect that many more will be updated, fixed, and available after launch.”
I’am not, those are flatpaks, that’s not the same as system wide installation. You can’t change system files on the deck unless you unlock it, and even if you do that your changes will get reverted next time there is an update, because that’s how he system is designed to work, every update a clean slate.
I own a Steam Deck, reserved it on the first 15 minutes. I use Linux daily as my main OS for almost two decades, coincidentally most of my machines are also Arch based. I know what I’m talking about. You don’t want to use SteamOS for your daily computer, the system is purposefully handicapped to work as a console, if you’re doing the occasional browsing or text editing it works, the moment you need to touch system things it goes down the drain very fast.
I’m not shitting on the deck or SteamOS, I have a deck and never even considering switching the system. But you need to know the limitations of it. The system is designed for gaming, trying to use it as your main computer is bound to give you headaches even if you know your way around Linux and can think on appropriate ways to bypass the limitations, from things like podman to user services to overlay fs.
I mean that’s fair, but for the average users what exactly are they going to need to be touching system wise? All your flatpak stuff is going to be safe.
And there’s nothing stopping you from making the partition writable, it’s just not a great idea since the update mechanism has certain expectations. But it’s your device, so do what you want.
Depends on what the average user wants to do, here’s a list of random things off the top of my head that require system wide changes, i.e. they will get overwritten with the next update (which btw means you’ll need to do these at the very least monthly, but might be daily if you also want the latest SteamOS updates):
That’s just what I came up with half-asleep in 5min, I’m sure there are plenty of more examples. Yes a user might go his entire life without needing any of that, but someone who doesn’t know Linux will get frustrated if he needs any of it and nothing that he does work and when he gets it to work it’s reverted the next day. On the other hand, someone who knows Linux doesn’t need to be told any of this, because they understand the limitations and why they exist, and can work their way around it, but most importantly probably wouldn’t ask if the steam deck can be used as a PC or if it’s proprietary, since the steam deck in kind of a big thing in the community.
What’s wrong with that phrase though? In your opinion Is the deck more or less proprietary than a PC?
While technically true at a literal level, “proprietary PC” gives the impression of closed systems like OEM laptops. “Just” has a bit of a diminutive tone to it.
While Steam itself is proprietary / closed source, the Deck’s Linux OS foundation is open source. Despite being developed by Valve, Proton is also open source and is a massive boon for the viability of Linux gaming.
OEM parts are directly available from an official supplier along with detailed repair documentation - things stop short of schematics, which I look forward to seeing change. Third party parts (screens, face button tactile upgrades, etc) are available and able to function uninhibited. The device is clearly designed with user customization and reparability in mind.
With that said, the deck feels so much less proprietary than the PC ecosystem.
Not saying that you are wrong or that people are right to be downvoting you, I just think your phrasing comes off a bit harsh which led to negative impulse reactions. I know that my initial response was negative until I sat and thought about what you actually meant for a minute.
The PC ecosystem has all of that though, including different vendors providing parts on open standards such as power delivery or data transfers. Yes the Deck is open and awesome, but so are PCs. In fact part of what makes the Deck awesome is that it’s essentially a PC.
As someone who repairs consumer electronics for a living I’m inclined to disagree.
People are routinely installing batteries of dubious quality because the original device manufacturer will not sell them one, but the part is available within their authorized repair network.
I have clients come to me after a manufacturer quotes more than a device’s original purchase cost for a replacement screen. I’ve also had circumstances where that part is unavailable because the device is too new and the aftermarket through third-party vendors hasn’t had a chance to mature.
Schematics are only made available through leaks.
The current state of the OEM PC landscape is the main driving force behind Right To Repair legislation. Valve entered the market already compliant.
I’ll add that one of my clients got a $150 quote from Valve for an out-of-warranty repair/replacement of the mainboard, which is pretty incredible considering that’s the most expensive part in the device.
From a hardware/repair standpoint, the OEM PC and Steam Deck ecosystems are far apart from one another.
I’m sorry, but I think we have a mismatch on our understanding of the word proprietary. A desktop PC has some proprietary things, firmware, and the likes are almost always proprietary, as in they’re the propriety of the company that made it, which means that if someone else tried to make them they’ll get sued. But most of the schematics and connectors are an open source standard. Which means that if something breaks, you can buy a replacement from a different company and everything should work.
Laptops are mostly the same as well, in fact they use much of the same standards, the thing is that the form factor makes it difficult for third-parties to make the pieces, but they exist, and are legal.
A company can charge as much or as little as they want to fix their device, that has no impact in whether the device is proprietary or not. If you are legally allowed to open, repair it and change parts with third-party ones it’s not proprietary. If anything in that chain breaks, e.g. you’re not allowed to open or repair, or third-parties are not allowed to make replacements then it’s proprietary.
Besides having made a device that’s essentially as proprietary as a desktop (which is to say almost no proprietary at all), Valve is also offering their own replacement parts and cheap repairs, which are all things to commend, but if Nintendo did it for the switch the switch would still be proprietary.
Most of what you mentioned is right to repair, which is important and all the more reason the Deck should be praised, but it’s not what proprietary means.
Maybe it’s about the ‘mostly read only’? That’s the only thing I don’t get.
I’ve ran into it, and it’s very slightly off-putting. At the same time, I fully understand why they’ve done it that way, and actually agree with them. The use of flat packs as an alternative makes the problem irrelevant. They maximised openness, while also protecting it from being completely borked up by a newb running random commands.
I’m thankful for the protection, my poor laptop knows why. I was quite surprised that no superuser exists after regular setup. Thought I had forgotten my credentials (again) but they just were never set.
SteamOS has the root filesystem set to read only, this is because of the way the system gets updated, and also makes it sure that every deck is running the same system. So you can’t change system configs or install things on the system. You can get around these by installing things for your user and creating services for your user. It’s doable if you want a gaming device that you use for some other things, but it’s not very convenient for a day-to-day drive.