The problem with rust, I always find is that when you’re from the previous coding generation like myself. Where I grew up on 8 bit machines with basic and assembly language that you could actually use moving into OO languages… I find that with rust, I’m always trying to shove a round block in a square hole.
When I look at other projects done originally in rust, I think they’re using a different design paradigm.
Not to say, what I make doesn’t work and isn’t still fast and mostly efficient (mostly…). But one example is, because I’m used to working with references and shoving them in different storage. Everything ends up surrounded by Rc<xxx> or Rc<RefCell<xxx>> and accessed with blah.as_ptr().borrow().x etc.
Nothing wrong with that, but the code (to me at least) feels messy in comparison to say C# which is where I do most of my day job work these days. But since I see often that things are done very different in rust projects I see online, I feel like to really get on with the language I need a design paradigm shift somewhere.
I do still persist with rust because I think it’s way more portable than other languages. By that I mean it will make executable files for linux and windows with the same code that really only needs the standard libraries installed on the machine. So when I think of writing a project I want to work on multi platforms, I’m generally looking at rust first these days.
I just realised this is programmerhumor. Sorry, not a very funny comment. Unless you’re a rust developer and laughing at my plight of trying to make rust work for me.
The current thing I’m working on (processor for iptv m3u files) isn’t public yet, it’s still in the very early stages. Some of the “learning to fly” rust projects I’ve done so far are here though:
https://git.nerfed.net/r00ty/bingo/_rust (it’s a multi-threaded bingo game simulator, that I made because of the stand-up maths video on the subject). https://git.nerfed.net/r00ty/spectrum/_screen (this is a port of part of a general CPU emulation project I did in C#, it emulates the ZX spectrum screen, you can load in the 6912 byte screens and it will show it in a 2x scaled window).
I think both of these are rather using Arc<RwLock<Thing>> because they both operate in a threaded environment. Bingo is wholly multi-threaded and the spectrum screen is meant to be used by a CPU emulator running in another thread. So not quite the same thing. But you can probably see a lot of jamming the wrong shape in the wrong hole in both of those.
The current project isn’t multi-threaded. So it has a lot of the Rc/Rc<RefCell> action instead.
EDIT: Just to give the reason for Rc<RefCell> in the current project. I’m reading in a M3U file and I’m going to be referencing it against an Excel file. So in the structure for the m3u file, I have two BtreeMaps, one for order by channel number and one by name. Each containing references to the same Channel object.
Likewise the same channel objects are stored in the structure for the Excel file that is read in (searched for in the m3u file structure).
BTreeMaps used because in different scenarios the contents will be output in either name order or channel order. So just better to put them in, in that order in the first place.
The bingo one actually uses crossbeam channels instead of mutexes, so that’s nice. I haven’t looked too closely at it though.
I don’t think you can do too much about the Spectrum one if you want to keep the two threads, but here’s what I would change related to thread synchronization. Lemmy doesn’t seem to allow me to attach patch files for whatever reason so have an archive instead… https://dblsaiko.net/pub/tmp/patches.tar.bz2 (I wrote a few notes in the commit messages)
Just to give the reason for Rc<RefCell> in the current project. I’m reading in a M3U file and I’m going to be referencing it against an Excel file. So in the structure for the m3u file, I have two BtreeMaps, one for order by channel number and one by name. Each containing references to the same Channel object.
So basically it’s channels indexed by channel number and name? That one is actually one of the easy cases. Store indices instead:
structChannels {
data: Vec<Channel>,
by_number: BTreeMap<u32/* or whatever */, usize>,
by_name: BTreeMap<String, usize>,
}
// untested but I think it should compilefnget_channel_by_name(ch: &Channels, name: &str) ->Option<&Channel> {
Some(&self.data[*ch.by_name.get(name)?])
}
The bingo one actually uses crossbeam channels instead of mutexes, so that’s nice. I haven’t looked too closely at it though.
The C# original uses the equivalent of read/write locks. But I found it problematic to work the same way in rust and then discovered the communication option was far easier to implement and actually avoids holding up threads. So went with that. Much easier and much faster in execution I think.
I don’t think you can do too much about the Spectrum one if you want to keep the two threads, but here’s what I would change related to thread synchronization. Lemmy doesn’t seem to allow me to attach patch files for whatever reason so have an archive instead… dblsaiko.net/pub/tmp/patches.tar.bz2 (I wrote a few notes in the commit messages)
In reality I’m never likely to remake the CPU project in rust. Firstly because I’d need to entirely re-engineer it because it’s extensively using hierarchical classes, which just doesn’t work the same way in rust. And I’m not sure traits would allow me to do things in even close to the same way. But if it were to work with a CPU emulator they need to share the memory, and also the CPU needs its own thread.
So basically it’s channels indexed by channel number and name? That one is actually one of the easy cases. Store indices instead:
This was something I was thinking about the other evening. I needed to get the index to remove some other data anyway and wondered if I’d be better off having a master vector and usize lookups for that data store. It’s one extra lookup, but by index it’s the tiniest and the speed isn’t a real issue anyway. It’s replacing perl scripts pulling data from mysql. It couldn’t possibly run slower than that :P
Thanks for the commentary though and I think I’m going to make the changes to use indices to lookup data. I wanted to re-order the way things are done a bit anyway. The problem I see potentially is that the lookups probably need to be regenerated every time I delete something. But actually I think that since it is rebuilt from a file on load. Maybe I just remove the items from the lookups and leave them in the vector. Since next run they would be gone anyway.
I find these videos give a very visual explanation and help to put you into the right mindset: http://intorust.com/
(You can skip the first two videos.)
Sort of when it clicked for me, was when I realized that your code needs to be a tree of function calls.
I mean, that’s what all code is anyways, with a main-function at the top calling other functions which call other functions. But OOP adds a layer to that, i.e. objects, and encourages to do all function calls between objects. You don’t want to do that in Rust. You kind of have to write simpler code for it to fall into place.
To make it a bit more concrete:
You will have functions which hold ownership over some data, typically because they instantiated a struct. These sit at the root of a sub-tree, where you pass access to this data down into further functions by borrowing it to them.
You don’t typically want to pass ownership all over the place, nor do you typically want to borrow (or pass references) to functions which are not part of this sub-tree.
Of course, there’s situations where this isn’t easily possible, e.g. when having two independent threads talking to each other, and then you do need Rc or Arc, but yeah, the vast majority of programming problems can be solved with trees of function calls.
Sort of when it clicked for me, was when I realized that your code needs to be a tree of function calls.
I mean, that’s what all code is anyways, with a main-function at the top calling other functions which call other functions. But OOP adds a layer to that, i.e. objects, and encourages to do all function calls between objects. You don’t want to do that in Rust. You kind of have to write simpler code for it to fall into place.
Yes, this ties in with what I’m saying though. You need a paradigm shift in your design philosophy, which is hard when you come from a Cx background.
I also think that in OO there shouldn’t be much cross contamination. It happens (and it happens a lot in my personal projects to be fair) but when well designed it shouldn’t need to be. In C# for example it should be the case that rather than a function owning a resource, a class should. So when using an object between classes you take it as a reference from a method in one class and pass it into a method to another class rather than call that class and make it a dependency of that class too. In this way you would have a one way dependency, rather than a two way.
This kind of thinking has moved into creating objects in rust. Also I think yes within a same class the idea of a function (that isn’t static) accepting an object that is part of the class that was returned by another function in the case class feels very wrong from a Cx style point of view. If we knew we were going to do that, we’d just make it a class level variable and use it in both functions.
Like I say, just another way of thinking and I’m not there yet.
The problem with rust, I always find is that when you’re from the previous coding generation like myself. Where I grew up on 8 bit machines with basic and assembly language that you could actually use moving into OO languages… I find that with rust, I’m always trying to shove a round block in a square hole.
When I look at other projects done originally in rust, I think they’re using a different design paradigm.
Not to say, what I make doesn’t work and isn’t still fast and mostly efficient (mostly…). But one example is, because I’m used to working with references and shoving them in different storage. Everything ends up surrounded by Rc<xxx> or Rc<RefCell<xxx>> and accessed with blah.as_ptr().borrow().x etc.
Nothing wrong with that, but the code (to me at least) feels messy in comparison to say C# which is where I do most of my day job work these days. But since I see often that things are done very different in rust projects I see online, I feel like to really get on with the language I need a design paradigm shift somewhere.
I do still persist with rust because I think it’s way more portable than other languages. By that I mean it will make executable files for linux and windows with the same code that really only needs the standard libraries installed on the machine. So when I think of writing a project I want to work on multi platforms, I’m generally looking at rust first these days.
I just realised this is programmerhumor. Sorry, not a very funny comment. Unless you’re a rust developer and laughing at my plight of trying to make rust work for me.
Do you have some public code you could link to that you’re having this issue with? There isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution for Rc/RefCell, I think.
The current thing I’m working on (processor for iptv m3u files) isn’t public yet, it’s still in the very early stages. Some of the “learning to fly” rust projects I’ve done so far are here though:
https://git.nerfed.net/r00ty/bingo/_rust (it’s a multi-threaded bingo game simulator, that I made because of the stand-up maths video on the subject).
https://git.nerfed.net/r00ty/spectrum/_screen (this is a port of part of a general CPU emulation project I did in C#, it emulates the ZX spectrum screen, you can load in the 6912 byte screens and it will show it in a 2x scaled window).
I think both of these are rather using Arc<RwLock<Thing>> because they both operate in a threaded environment. Bingo is wholly multi-threaded and the spectrum screen is meant to be used by a CPU emulator running in another thread. So not quite the same thing. But you can probably see a lot of jamming the wrong shape in the wrong hole in both of those.
The current project isn’t multi-threaded. So it has a lot of the Rc/Rc<RefCell> action instead.
EDIT: Just to give the reason for Rc<RefCell> in the current project. I’m reading in a M3U file and I’m going to be referencing it against an Excel file. So in the structure for the m3u file, I have two BtreeMaps, one for order by channel number and one by name. Each containing references to the same Channel object.
Likewise the same channel objects are stored in the structure for the Excel file that is read in (searched for in the m3u file structure).
BTreeMaps used because in different scenarios the contents will be output in either name order or channel order. So just better to put them in, in that order in the first place.
The bingo one actually uses crossbeam channels instead of mutexes, so that’s nice. I haven’t looked too closely at it though.
I don’t think you can do too much about the Spectrum one if you want to keep the two threads, but here’s what I would change related to thread synchronization. Lemmy doesn’t seem to allow me to attach patch files for whatever reason so have an archive instead… https://dblsaiko.net/pub/tmp/patches.tar.bz2 (I wrote a few notes in the commit messages)
So basically it’s channels indexed by channel number and name? That one is actually one of the easy cases. Store indices instead:
struct Channels { data: Vec<Channel>, by_number: BTreeMap<u32 /* or whatever */, usize>, by_name: BTreeMap<String, usize>, } // untested but I think it should compile fn get_channel_by_name(ch: &Channels, name: &str) -> Option<&Channel> { Some(&self.data[*ch.by_name.get(name)?]) }The C# original uses the equivalent of read/write locks. But I found it problematic to work the same way in rust and then discovered the communication option was far easier to implement and actually avoids holding up threads. So went with that. Much easier and much faster in execution I think.
In reality I’m never likely to remake the CPU project in rust. Firstly because I’d need to entirely re-engineer it because it’s extensively using hierarchical classes, which just doesn’t work the same way in rust. And I’m not sure traits would allow me to do things in even close to the same way. But if it were to work with a CPU emulator they need to share the memory, and also the CPU needs its own thread.
This was something I was thinking about the other evening. I needed to get the index to remove some other data anyway and wondered if I’d be better off having a master vector and usize lookups for that data store. It’s one extra lookup, but by index it’s the tiniest and the speed isn’t a real issue anyway. It’s replacing perl scripts pulling data from mysql. It couldn’t possibly run slower than that :P
Thanks for the commentary though and I think I’m going to make the changes to use indices to lookup data. I wanted to re-order the way things are done a bit anyway. The problem I see potentially is that the lookups probably need to be regenerated every time I delete something. But actually I think that since it is rebuilt from a file on load. Maybe I just remove the items from the lookups and leave them in the vector. Since next run they would be gone anyway.
I find these videos give a very visual explanation and help to put you into the right mindset: http://intorust.com/
(You can skip the first two videos.)
Sort of when it clicked for me, was when I realized that your code needs to be a tree of function calls.
I mean, that’s what all code is anyways, with a main-function at the top calling other functions which call other functions. But OOP adds a layer to that, i.e. objects, and encourages to do all function calls between objects. You don’t want to do that in Rust. You kind of have to write simpler code for it to fall into place.
To make it a bit more concrete:
You will have functions which hold ownership over some data, typically because they instantiated a struct. These sit at the root of a sub-tree, where you pass access to this data down into further functions by borrowing it to them.
You don’t typically want to pass ownership all over the place, nor do you typically want to borrow (or pass references) to functions which are not part of this sub-tree.
Of course, there’s situations where this isn’t easily possible, e.g. when having two independent threads talking to each other, and then you do need
RcorArc, but yeah, the vast majority of programming problems can be solved with trees of function calls.Yes, this ties in with what I’m saying though. You need a paradigm shift in your design philosophy, which is hard when you come from a Cx background.
I also think that in OO there shouldn’t be much cross contamination. It happens (and it happens a lot in my personal projects to be fair) but when well designed it shouldn’t need to be. In C# for example it should be the case that rather than a function owning a resource, a class should. So when using an object between classes you take it as a reference from a method in one class and pass it into a method to another class rather than call that class and make it a dependency of that class too. In this way you would have a one way dependency, rather than a two way.
This kind of thinking has moved into creating objects in rust. Also I think yes within a same class the idea of a function (that isn’t static) accepting an object that is part of the class that was returned by another function in the case class feels very wrong from a Cx style point of view. If we knew we were going to do that, we’d just make it a class level variable and use it in both functions.
Like I say, just another way of thinking and I’m not there yet.
Go is really good for std library, windows and Linux from same code and static binaries BTW.