Clever_Clover [she/her]

I of course know and absolutely condemn that, again what is your point?

You do not know what these words mean and you do not truly condemn them, that’s clear by the arguments you make

Israel is the most diverse country in the whole region without question

“Without question” since when are you a middle east expert? How many years did it take to get your doctorate degree on the subject?

Israel is not diverse, an apartheid state cannot be applauded for having the second class citizens be of a different race, by your logic south Africa during apartheid was the most diverse country in the southern African region

and it is also also the only democracy

Do you know what an apartheid state is? Could you give me that definition, and then give me the definition of a democracy, and try to weasel your way out of the contradiction that an apartheid state can’t be a democracy

Other countries in the region are monarchies or (often military) dictatorships.

The UK is a monarchy, but I bet you think it’s democratic to some degree, are you aware that a lot of the monarchies in the region employ a similar parliamentary system?

Israel is also the only country in the region that has womens and LGBTQ+ rights written into it’s law

You can blame CIA funding the religious extremist reactionaries (and also the british bringing in the criminalization of lgbtq people during their colonial rule over the region) for the oppressive laws that exist in the region, but despite that it’s not as bad in certain countries that are more progressive, a lot of the middle eastern countries are on the level of Serbia/other reactionary Balkan countries in terms of lgbtq stuff

Israel is not really better for lgbtq people, especially Palestinian citizens of Israel that belong to that group, they are very heavily oppressed and regularly harassed and even get blackmailed by the IDF due to their identities

You show that you don’t know anything about the region, just repeat the propaganda and pink washing that you’ve been fed.

while in all other countries in the region women are being oppressed second class citizens

it’s very funny that you think this, in a lot of the countries in the region (notable exceptions being US allies like Saudi Arabia) women have the same rights and protections under the law, this has been the case for many many years in most of these countries, women’s rights are lagging behind the west sure, but it’s nowhere near as bad as you have been told, especially in more recent years

Agreed but sadly, when we look at history, it seems to happen quite often, no matter if we like it or not.

“Agreed but” no buts, this is not a justifiable action, the fact that it happened in the past doesn’t justify current day actionsththe fact that the US and Britain committed genocide doesn’t mean we should just give up on fucking stopping genocide, “no matter if we like it or not” we have reached an agreement that we don’t like it, a global consensus that it is bad (other than the US and other western countries that support Israel, they love genocide), so we should stop people from committing genocide, if Russia starts to commit an actual genocide in Ukraine like Israel is doing in Gaza, then you’ll no doubt agree that the world should sanction them, etc, in order to stop them, you just don’t think Palestinians are people like Ukrainians are.

I fully agree with that statement. However this does not justify generalizing all Israeli citizens as child murderers.

During Hitlers rule of Nazi Germany, a very large number of Germans picked up arms and fought against their government, and were killed for it, mainly communists and leftists

But a lot Germans lived happily under and supported the actions of their government

Would you say those Germans that never lifted a finger to oppose the genocide and ethnic cleansing of jews were responsible for what happened? I’d say yes, they did not protest, did not resist, especially the ones that served in the army

Are you aware that the majority of Israeli citizens are reservists that will pick up arms to serve in the IDF if given the order? Are you aware that the IDF has a higher than 80% approval rating among Israelis? How are these people not complicit?

I fully agree with you that jews are just people like everyone else but we should also consider the regular antisemitic pogroms that happened throughout history, which are an obvious motivation for a community to get their own safe space in the world.

We should indeed consider those pogroms, every antisemite in Europe should be killed for their crimes, rather than what happened (governments with the help of NATO suppressing communists and leftists and promoting nationalistic (usually antisemitic) groups)

Also, all you’ve done with this argument is establish that “Jews should get an ethnostate” (I still disagree but I’ll humor you for a second), you did not establish that a noble cause justifies ethnic cleansing and genocide, therefore the actions of Israel are no more acceptable than the actions of british settlers committing genocide against native Americans

Absolutely agree. Please keep in mind that I in fact never apologized any of the crimes of the IDF or the illegal settlers.

You did, continuously bringing up that zionists have a (in your view) noble cause is an attempt at the justification of ethnic cleansing and genocide

All I did was criticizing the antisemitic generalization of all citizens of Israel as casual child murderers.

They are complicit in the child murder.

Sadly it seems like most people’s opinions are simply too polarized to get such nuances at this point.

You’re a liberal.

I condemn the racist politics of the right-extremist government of Israel and the social segregation and severe injustice it causes. What is your point?

Israel is an apartheid state, this isn’t new, this isn’t something that the current government did, this is the establishing principle of the state that has been held up since the start, calling an apartheid state “diverse” like you did in your first post is absolutely incorrect and is not close to the reality of the situation in any way shape or form, it’s pure propaganda

There was this thing you all constantly choose to ignore, called the holocaust, that afaik not just a lot of antifascists see as a reason why Israel must exist, simply because otherwise the Jews will not survive capitalism.

having suffered in the past does not give a group of people free reign to commit those same acts against a separate unaffiliated population, having an ethnostate in the first place is not a good goal, but even if we said it was necessary, doing it through the ethnic cleansing and genocide of another group is not at all justifiable in any way.

treating things as if jews are simply different from regular people and could never survive as a minority in another country so they should not be judged by the same standard we apply to everyone is in itself an anti-semitic view to have, jews are regular people, committing genocide and ethnic cleansing is bad, whoever does it and however noble their goal is doesn’t change that fact.

what? that’s just false, developers are people, they are employed to develop the game, usually their employer is the game studio.

even if they do hate it and consider it to be the work of the devil, they still don’t really have a choice, game development is a really competitive industry, if devs aren’t leaving their jobs when the studio makes them overwork 80 hour work weeks right before release for a month in order to hit the deadline then they’re definitely not leaving just because they hate having to implement denuvo.

so whenever your boss tells you to do something you think is not the correct course of action you just quit right? you just leave your job without having another one lined up and probably risk losing your home, all because your boss told you to this thing you find annoying, you don’t have a choice to work or not work, the choice is to work or starve, which is not a choice.

China

the largest poverty alleviation campaign in modern history is too small for you to consider good?

Russia

we’re talking about AES, not capitalist states.

if everybody votes, the government represent the interests of the whole population

This is simply false, representatives in the majority of neoliberal ‘democracies’ are not held accountable to the wishes of the people they are representing, and cannot be removed from their position with a simple majority from those who elected them, so then these people look towards those with influence (corporations, rich capitalists, etc) and then do things to please those groups in order to gain favor with them, like campaign donations, lavish luxurious trips and vacations, positive coverage in capitalist owned media, etc

(still disregarding lobbying)

Lobbying is not the only lever of power the capitalist class uses, the private ownership of mainstream media by capitalists means that all of their coverage would push capitalist interests, campaign ‘donations’ and funding is also used for control, to choose the candidates who represent your interest as a capitalist the best to win, and the candidates themselves are more likely to win if they come from a rich well connected upperclass background (meaning they are most likely capitalists themselves)

Regulatory capture is also a thing

There’s also the fact that capitalists also fund think tanks to publish studies that support their interests (no matter how far from the truth they have to stray) and are then used to support legislation that is in their favor (see global fossil capital and climate change), there’s also lots of astroturfing that goes on

And if lobbying were the issue, we could just ban it…

Even if you outlaw lobbying capitalists will still control the government in a myriad of other ways, capital flight being an example I didn’t mention in this reply yet,but this one is very strong and the US/WTO/IMF enforce it on as many countries as they can, the only way to have actual democracy is through forceful suppression of the capitalist class, only then you could imagine having a government actually controlled by the people while still having a capitalist market and a capitalist class

What exactly do you mean by “capitalist class”?

the class of people that makes a living through ownership of capital, they do not need to sell their labor, as opposed to workers which need to sell their labor to survive.

Is that only the people that dont work at all?

it is people who do not need to sell their labor to survive, they make their living through taking the surplus labor value that workers generate. (they may also choose to work, but this doesn’t change their position, they have a choice to work if they desire, unlike a worker which doesn’t have a choice)

And why cant those capitalists and the “working class” BOTH have power over the government?

because one class here has more leverage over the government, and so in a conflict of interest the government sides with the capitalist class as can be seen during any economic crisis (or crisis of any kind really) where austerity measures are immediately implemented and worker rights are rolled back.

how does each member of the “capitalist class” have any more influence on the government than each member of the “working class”?

they do on average, but you’ll easily be able to find a small capitalist that doesn’t have more power than you to control the government.

the thing is, here we are talking classes and class interests, if those who control the government belong to the capitalist class then the government will do things that benefit most members of the capitalist class, there doesn’t need to be direct control by every single capitalist for them to benefit from capitalist control over the government.

to give an example, regulatory protections to protect employees from hazardous working conditions may be removed through the direct influence of amazon or some other large corporation, but, smaller capitalist corporations also benefit from this as they stop having to take on the cost of providing a safer working environment (they can exploit their workers more fully), in this way, the government is controlled by capitalist, but not every capitalist controls the government, yet the government works for the benefit of the entire capitalist class.

what facts did I deny? do you want me to get you the homelessness and home ownership statistics for China? I assure you that they support my point, which is that the majority of people in China (even the poor rural people) are not homeless and even own their own homes.

the poverty line is very made up bullshit based on nothing but vibes some economists had, not even any statistics, it should be higher in a lot of places, lower in others where the price of things is lower, but in any case, no one claimed poor rural Chinese people don’t exist, ThereRisesARedStar said they don’t have a homelessness problem anywhere approaching the west, which is true, all of those poor rural Chinese people have homes, hell most of them even own their own homes, they don’t even rent, so, what exactly is your point? China has been the largest alleviator of poverty in modern history, yet, they do still have poverty, it has not been eradicated yet, but, they do not have a homelessness issue due to government initiatives that have worked very hard to make sure there is enough housing for their population (see western propaganda about ghost cities and the reality of how they’re all filled with people now)

you should read more Marx if you think Marx only said things about economics

‘democratic’ is used today a lot of the time to describe neoliberal capitalist governments that are controlled (influenced greatly) by the capitalist class

for example we can look at somewhere like the US and point out how the majority of people in government are all rich capitalists and how through lobbying and campaign ‘donations’ and owning the media the capitalist class controls the government

marxists call this kind of state a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie (capital), as opposed to a dictatorship of the proletariat (workers)

dictatorship here meaning general ‘rule’ not the specific meaning that the word has taken on more recently

so ‘democratic’ capitalist countries that exist today are under the “rule of the capitalist class” or “dictatorship of capital”

so if you wanted an actual democratic (in the real sense of the word) government, you’d need a government which is controlled by the majority of people, that is, the workers, a dictatorship of the proletariat

under such a system capitalists cannot be allowed to have influence on the government, which is something that is not really possible unless you implement tight capital controls like they do in China

the reason being that capital flight is a very real threat to a capitalist economy, and having that power over a government lets the capitalist class dictate terms and change laws to be favorable to them despite what the majority of people might want.

so to answer your question, the only way to have a government with a capitalist system not be controlled by capitalists is through suppression of the capitalist class, if they are allowed to have influence then you no longer have actual democracy.

best way I’ve seen to tell someone to read capital lmao