Don’t underplay a regime and make them seem more reasonable than they are by whitewashing history

That’s a better definition!

But also don’t exaggerate a "regime"¹ to make them seem more extreme than they are by whitewashing, decontextualizing, fabricating, using loaded language[1], etc.

Propoganda often works explicitly via selectively presenting facts to encourage a particular synthesis or perception. What your are calling “details” and “minutia” are attempts to try and push back against some of that selectivity bias.

Am I supposed to give a monolithic answer now for speaking broadly?

Yes, because you were perfectly happy/capable of giving one before:

We can push back against misinformation without accidentally bootlicking.

Which while it’s good in theory it appears the phrase “accidentally bootlicking” allows for others, including a certain ‘argumentative gremlin’, to perceive that as meaning “so long as it doesn’t contradict my existing worldview”.

Having a stronger/more rigorous definition would help you with communicating your ideas, allow you to self-check for dissonances and help me understand if there’s anything of actual substance here.

So what’s your definition?

Probably shouldn’t have mentioned my thoughts on that thread, I had hoped to provide some perspective on where I was coming from but probably just confused things for everyone. That’s my bad, back to the relevant point:

How do you think one should make that distinction?

We can push back against misinformation without accidentally bootlicking.

It depends entirely on how you define “accidentally bootlicking” because I think OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml has done an excellent job of calling out how you have been making that distinction.

Taking a step back and decontextualizing how do you think one should make that distinction?

The issue as you see it:

clings on to a pseudo-scientific economic ideology

The prescription you suggest:

pseudo-scientific economic ideology

When you recognize the amount of bullshit propoganda that is consumed daily and realize how false it all is it’s very easy to switch to “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” mode.

Additionally it’s harder to break others (and oneself) out of the propoganda soup without an extremely sharp distinction between the lies being spoonfed and the material reality. The material reality often ends up getting distorted as a result and the cycle continues.

I’d love to talk to someone in the middle of the computer science and developmental psychology Venn diagram.

Not that person, but an Interesting lecture on that topic

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The time period they are referencing (old history at this point…) the Ottoman empire was in control of the area and it operated as something of an apartheid state. Pogroms, persecution and oppression absolutely happened. However it was mostly a new import from western Europe. Jewish citizens were second class but they were still “people of the book” and fared much better for most of the empire’s history.

However, understanding a bit more history there is a direct through line from those historical wrongs and the modern Palestinian genocide. It is just a continuation of the Spanish, Portuguese and British (amongst others) campaign against ethnicly semetic peoples that the Jewish people also historically fell victim to.

I will note the slew of pogroms in the middle east and ask you read about why the Bar Giora was formed.

I understand that you are trying to draw a direct line from the modern IDF to a historic Jewish Resistance Movement. However, I would argue that it was coopted by foreign powers and abandoned it’s goal of an independent jewish state after it’s transformation into the Haganah and transitioned from a defensive force (largely support) to a colonizing force (don’t support).

I do not support the Ottoman empire in its persecution of religious minorities. However, I do not see how your logic and worldview wouldn’t support the Ottomans in persecuting the Jewish people at the time due to their militant tactics. What perspective am I missing?

Tell me what your point is or drop it.

The point is controlled opposition, perverse incentives, and the power/danger of “sell outs”.

the re-colonization of Israel by Jews goes back at least as far as the 1200s.

Immigration is not the same as colonization. When immigrating to a location (even mass migration) the power dynamics do not allow for the migrating group to dominate the local group. Colonization is when that power dynamic is flipped.

There have been war crimes on both sides, and they both need be acknowledged

Again power dynamics and scale are the most important factor here. If someone punches you that does not give you the right to murder their whole family. If someone peacefully barged their way into your home and you to leave what would your response be?

They were used by the Nazis to potentially make impossible choices that hurt their fellow community members, but they had to make these choices or else their community would have suffered even more harm

Yes, but why did Nazi Germany form them? What was their purpose in the machine?

I’m curious where you find a connection between these WWII Judenrates

I think it would be more productive for you to do a bit of reading and come back with what you think I’m getting at. I think answering that now would color the perception and make it harder to learn about a very important political concept.

I appreciate the honesty but you seem to be missing the perspective that:

1. The existence of the State of Israel is an explicit British colonization project and currently exists as a puppet state of “the empire”.

2. The power imbalance between the state of Israel and Hamas and the repeated, and well documented, war crimes and ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the State of Israel.

3. Left wing vs Right wing is a false dichotomy. You will have opinions and viewpoints of both matter your political self identification and they are poorly defined.

I would be curious to know your opinions about the judenrätes of WWII (whether they were heroes or villains, left wing vs right wing, etc.) and how the current State of Israel is not just a continuation of that?