Don’t get me wrong, fuck nestle, but this whole movement that’s grown singling them out is so superficial it really frustrates me. All of the companies of nestle’s size are up to the exact same shit. They all exploit their employees, destroy the planet, and invest millions if not billions in union busting and lobbying.
I get that it’s easier just to focus on one company, but if you want one thing to focus on, make it capitalism, the system that enables, hell, encourages, this shit, rather than individual products of it.
Even if the movement somehow managed to destroy nestle (never going to happen), destroying one company achieves nothing. Tear the whole thing down.
The Nestle boycott wasn’t founded due to exploitation of employees, unions, etc. They’re shitty and do all that stuff (and far more). But the boycott was specifically founded (in the 1970s) due to their decision to relentlessly market baby formula to vulnerable mothers, particularly in less developed countries, often in times of famine or hardship. They knowingly caused health problems in infants (who of course then grew into adults with health problems), probably caused many infant deaths, and pushed families into poverty (with all the consequences of that), for profit. 50 years later we’re still dealing with the consequences of their immoral marketing (which has never really stopped, they just change the messaging in order to comply with relevant laws, which are too weak).
I’d boycott them just for that, but they’re also the corporation who in both U.S. and European hearings has argued that water isn’t a human right and pushed to privatise community resources, at a time when water scarcity is one of the main long-term threats to many countries, including the U.S. and many European countries.
Other companies do this stuff too, but generally speaking they’ve done it for less time and are less brazen about it.
I am well aware of all of that information, and if you think others are less brazen, you’ve simply not been paying attention. Either way, you seem to have missed the point. Boycott them. But don’t think that’ll affect any change, because it won’t.
While I understand your perspective, you failed to mention their actions which specifically targeted new mothers in developing countries with unethical actions that resulted in the slow deaths of infants.
This is why I boycott Nestlé. Not poor treatment of employees, nor a disregard for the environment.
Nestlé implemented a plan that caused babies to die a slow and painful death while their mothers could only watch helplessly.
Since you’ve both missed the point entirely in favour of the same example (that is absolutely not unique to nestle), I’ll just copy paste my reply:
I am well aware of all of that information, and if you think others are less brazen, you’ve simply not been paying attention. Either way, you seem to have missed the point. Boycott them. But don’t think that’ll affect any change, because it won’t.
My goal was to say what some of their more egregious acts. I would hate for people to forget that Nestlé caused the slow painful death of infants because it was grouped in with general corporate behaviors.
I’m also aware of other atrocities performed by companies; the Banana Massacre by Chaquita (then United Fruit Company), Ford letting their customers burn to death instead of adding an $11 safety feature to the Ford Pinto, Apple using state sanctioned slave labor through Foxconn, etc etc. And when I get the chance, I share those acts of corporate malevolence.
I’m not excusing any of them. I’m just doing what I can to help prevent these acts from being forgotten.
For me, boycotting and / or protesting this behavior is not about changing the collective minds or behaviors of corporations. It’s about not accepting it and expressing personal outrage, even if it is commonplace.
For me, boycotting and / or protesting this behavior is not about changing the collective minds or behaviors of corporations. It’s about not accepting it and expressing personal outrage, even if it is commonplace.
And that right there is the problem, because if you’re not looking to change things, what’s the point? Outrage without action is not only futile, but it’s exactly what those at the top are counting on - for people to waste their time and energy on pointless boycotts that make them feel like they’re helping, while their machine chugs on uninterrupted. It’s a distraction, and it’s working.
Remembering, and reminding others of these atrocities is hollow if you don’t aim to destroy the system that enabled them in the first place (and which will continue to enable them, and others, to continue to do more, worse, atrocities, because capitalism isn’t getting any fucking friendlier or easier going on the working class).
So again - boycott whoever you want it if it makes you feel better, I boycott companies for all sorts of reasons, but don’t delude yourself in to thinking that is going to change anything on any level beyond your own personal feelings, because it won’t.
Join/create a union. Join/create a Food not Bombs. Actually invest your time reading up on socialism, anarchism, and becoming an anti capitalist in the way that personally suits you best, as well as what suits your community best, instead of expecting others to spoon feed you instructions.
I’m not trying to be an ass but I literally know nothing about you, where you are and what your local community needs, what your able and not to do, how much trouble you’re willing to get in to or how much time and resources you have to spare, and a whole load more variables that mean I couldn’t possibly tell you what to do or how.
Look up solidarity, look up dual power, look up building a community, take your own steps at your own pace.
Or don’t.
All I’m saying is don’t delude yourself (or others) in to thinking a boycott of a single company (or even all of them, but nothing beyond) is having any impact on anyone but you.
I think that we were both confused about what the other was trying to say. What I was hearing from you is “boycotts and protests are pointless and never change anything, so don’t even bother trying” and I think what you were hearing from me was “well, I stopped spending money on this one thing, that aught to fix society.” I do not think that was what either of us were trying to say.
Personally, I find that boycotting is only one step in a process of trying to break away from the influence of corporations. Once a person takes that step to say “I don’t need this.”, they are more inclined to look at other things in their life that they don’t like and find ways to remove them from their lives as well. They start to encourage others to take similar steps and find their own forms of freedom, maybe even get so upset that they start trying to enact reform. But it all starts with the self.
From my person experience, it takes a highly offensive act to get others to look beyond their personal convience and comfort. Hence my sharing the atrocities of Nestlé. It was never about influence a corporate mindset, it was about hoping to influence a persons mindset.
I would enjoy continuing our discussion, if you are up for it, though maybe through DMs or somewhere else more appropriate. For instance, I would be interested in hearing your views on large societies and impact they have on the individual as well as your thoughts on countering personal greed and how it corrupts efforts and movements intended to help others.
"boycotts and protests are pointless and never change anything, so don’t even bother trying”
First lets separate boycott from protest, because they differ quite a lot (specifically, in a protest you are using your body and putting yourself at risk which isn’t the case in a boycott), and we’re talking about one, not the other. As for the rest - yeah, that’s pretty much my position.
I’m glad to have more clarification on yours, but I don’t think my answer would change much (and to be clear, I’m not trying to be argumentative, I just think you can and should look deeper)
Once a person takes that step to say “I don’t need this.”, they are more inclined to look at other things in their life that they don’t like and find ways to remove them from their lives as well.
the problem, as has been demonstrated all over this thread, is that there are many people who simply can’t afford to do that (in money, or time, or for medical reasons or all of the above). They need essentials, and only shitty companies will sell them these essentials, they’re often not in a position to be dropping things completely, or even shopping around for other brands (99% of which are owned by companies just as bad as nestle anyway) because they’re already struggling to maintain the bare minimum and are too busy working however many jobs or struggling in other ways (like living in a food desert).
There is also the fact that outrage and activism “fatigues” are a real thing that is happening (or being deliberately caused), and the more individual companies or practices you ask people to consciously avoid, the less they will be able to take on and eventually (or sometimes immediately), with none at all (again - this is by design, it’s another method of distraction and divide and conquer. While people fight this one company and end up getting frustrated and put off because it doesn’t achieve anything, or while they’re busy criticising other working class people for what they buy and eat and throw away, they’re not fighting the root of the problem, so more shit will just keep coming). It isn’t about not bothering at all though, it’s about focusing on the big picture and the actual source of the problems, rather than only dealing with some of the mildest symptoms of that system. It’s the difference between liberalism and leftism (I’ve only skimmed this, but it seems like a good piece that relates to all this in a little more depth).
If you’re going to use nestle’s atrocities, and by all means do, add them to a list of other atrocities companies committed for profit too, and use them all together to make the case against capitalism itself.
There is no reforming it, there is no asking for change, there is no way to play by their rules (“free market”) that will achieve change. It’s not a bug, it’s a feature, and the sooner you realise that pretty much all the shit we’re experiencing is by design, and not accidental, the closer you’ll be to actually being free of it.
As for the other topics you’ve suggested, in brief, on both - I think large societies aren’t the problem, nor is individual greed, but I think they both become a problem when we live under a system that rewards that greed, and manipulates big societies to serve a small few.
Don’t get me wrong, fuck nestle, but this whole movement that’s grown singling them out is so superficial it really frustrates me.
All of the companies of nestle’s size are up to the exact same shit. They all exploit their employees, destroy the planet, and invest millions if not billions in union busting and lobbying.
I get that it’s easier just to focus on one company, but if you want one thing to focus on, make it capitalism, the system that enables, hell, encourages, this shit, rather than individual products of it.
Even if the movement somehow managed to destroy nestle (never going to happen), destroying one company achieves nothing. Tear the whole thing down.
The Nestle boycott wasn’t founded due to exploitation of employees, unions, etc. They’re shitty and do all that stuff (and far more). But the boycott was specifically founded (in the 1970s) due to their decision to relentlessly market baby formula to vulnerable mothers, particularly in less developed countries, often in times of famine or hardship. They knowingly caused health problems in infants (who of course then grew into adults with health problems), probably caused many infant deaths, and pushed families into poverty (with all the consequences of that), for profit. 50 years later we’re still dealing with the consequences of their immoral marketing (which has never really stopped, they just change the messaging in order to comply with relevant laws, which are too weak).
I’d boycott them just for that, but they’re also the corporation who in both U.S. and European hearings has argued that water isn’t a human right and pushed to privatise community resources, at a time when water scarcity is one of the main long-term threats to many countries, including the U.S. and many European countries.
Other companies do this stuff too, but generally speaking they’ve done it for less time and are less brazen about it.
I am well aware of all of that information, and if you think others are less brazen, you’ve simply not been paying attention. Either way, you seem to have missed the point. Boycott them. But don’t think that’ll affect any change, because it won’t.
Agreed. Fuck billionaires, fuck capitalism.
While I understand your perspective, you failed to mention their actions which specifically targeted new mothers in developing countries with unethical actions that resulted in the slow deaths of infants.
This is why I boycott Nestlé. Not poor treatment of employees, nor a disregard for the environment.
Nestlé implemented a plan that caused babies to die a slow and painful death while their mothers could only watch helplessly.
Fuck Nestlé.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Nestlé_boycott
Since you’ve both missed the point entirely in favour of the same example (that is absolutely not unique to nestle), I’ll just copy paste my reply:
I am well aware of all of that information, and if you think others are less brazen, you’ve simply not been paying attention. Either way, you seem to have missed the point. Boycott them. But don’t think that’ll affect any change, because it won’t.
My goal was to say what some of their more egregious acts. I would hate for people to forget that Nestlé caused the slow painful death of infants because it was grouped in with general corporate behaviors.
I’m also aware of other atrocities performed by companies; the Banana Massacre by Chaquita (then United Fruit Company), Ford letting their customers burn to death instead of adding an $11 safety feature to the Ford Pinto, Apple using state sanctioned slave labor through Foxconn, etc etc. And when I get the chance, I share those acts of corporate malevolence.
I’m not excusing any of them. I’m just doing what I can to help prevent these acts from being forgotten.
For me, boycotting and / or protesting this behavior is not about changing the collective minds or behaviors of corporations. It’s about not accepting it and expressing personal outrage, even if it is commonplace.
And that right there is the problem, because if you’re not looking to change things, what’s the point? Outrage without action is not only futile, but it’s exactly what those at the top are counting on - for people to waste their time and energy on pointless boycotts that make them feel like they’re helping, while their machine chugs on uninterrupted. It’s a distraction, and it’s working.
Remembering, and reminding others of these atrocities is hollow if you don’t aim to destroy the system that enabled them in the first place (and which will continue to enable them, and others, to continue to do more, worse, atrocities, because capitalism isn’t getting any fucking friendlier or easier going on the working class).
So again - boycott whoever you want it if it makes you feel better, I boycott companies for all sorts of reasons, but don’t delude yourself in to thinking that is going to change anything on any level beyond your own personal feelings, because it won’t.
What actions do you suggest? I am open to suggestions.
Join/create a union. Join/create a Food not Bombs. Actually invest your time reading up on socialism, anarchism, and becoming an anti capitalist in the way that personally suits you best, as well as what suits your community best, instead of expecting others to spoon feed you instructions.
I’m not trying to be an ass but I literally know nothing about you, where you are and what your local community needs, what your able and not to do, how much trouble you’re willing to get in to or how much time and resources you have to spare, and a whole load more variables that mean I couldn’t possibly tell you what to do or how.
Look up solidarity, look up dual power, look up building a community, take your own steps at your own pace.
Or don’t.
All I’m saying is don’t delude yourself (or others) in to thinking a boycott of a single company (or even all of them, but nothing beyond) is having any impact on anyone but you.
I think that we were both confused about what the other was trying to say. What I was hearing from you is “boycotts and protests are pointless and never change anything, so don’t even bother trying” and I think what you were hearing from me was “well, I stopped spending money on this one thing, that aught to fix society.” I do not think that was what either of us were trying to say.
Personally, I find that boycotting is only one step in a process of trying to break away from the influence of corporations. Once a person takes that step to say “I don’t need this.”, they are more inclined to look at other things in their life that they don’t like and find ways to remove them from their lives as well. They start to encourage others to take similar steps and find their own forms of freedom, maybe even get so upset that they start trying to enact reform. But it all starts with the self.
From my person experience, it takes a highly offensive act to get others to look beyond their personal convience and comfort. Hence my sharing the atrocities of Nestlé. It was never about influence a corporate mindset, it was about hoping to influence a persons mindset.
I would enjoy continuing our discussion, if you are up for it, though maybe through DMs or somewhere else more appropriate. For instance, I would be interested in hearing your views on large societies and impact they have on the individual as well as your thoughts on countering personal greed and how it corrupts efforts and movements intended to help others.
First lets separate boycott from protest, because they differ quite a lot (specifically, in a protest you are using your body and putting yourself at risk which isn’t the case in a boycott), and we’re talking about one, not the other. As for the rest - yeah, that’s pretty much my position.
I’m glad to have more clarification on yours, but I don’t think my answer would change much (and to be clear, I’m not trying to be argumentative, I just think you can and should look deeper)
the problem, as has been demonstrated all over this thread, is that there are many people who simply can’t afford to do that (in money, or time, or for medical reasons or all of the above). They need essentials, and only shitty companies will sell them these essentials, they’re often not in a position to be dropping things completely, or even shopping around for other brands (99% of which are owned by companies just as bad as nestle anyway) because they’re already struggling to maintain the bare minimum and are too busy working however many jobs or struggling in other ways (like living in a food desert).
There is also the fact that outrage and activism “fatigues” are a real thing that is happening (or being deliberately caused), and the more individual companies or practices you ask people to consciously avoid, the less they will be able to take on and eventually (or sometimes immediately), with none at all (again - this is by design, it’s another method of distraction and divide and conquer. While people fight this one company and end up getting frustrated and put off because it doesn’t achieve anything, or while they’re busy criticising other working class people for what they buy and eat and throw away, they’re not fighting the root of the problem, so more shit will just keep coming). It isn’t about not bothering at all though, it’s about focusing on the big picture and the actual source of the problems, rather than only dealing with some of the mildest symptoms of that system. It’s the difference between liberalism and leftism (I’ve only skimmed this, but it seems like a good piece that relates to all this in a little more depth).
If you’re going to use nestle’s atrocities, and by all means do, add them to a list of other atrocities companies committed for profit too, and use them all together to make the case against capitalism itself.
There is no reforming it, there is no asking for change, there is no way to play by their rules (“free market”) that will achieve change. It’s not a bug, it’s a feature, and the sooner you realise that pretty much all the shit we’re experiencing is by design, and not accidental, the closer you’ll be to actually being free of it.
As for the other topics you’ve suggested, in brief, on both - I think large societies aren’t the problem, nor is individual greed, but I think they both become a problem when we live under a system that rewards that greed, and manipulates big societies to serve a small few.